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I've recently come to the conclusion that jigs are for accuracy and not high volume production. I've heard a lot of builders ask why they should build a jig for a process when they are only going to do that process a couple times a year. What I have found is that it is easier, and much more accurate to build a jig and then use that jig to make your cuts than it is to just make the cuts by hand or using the wrong jigs. Most of the time the cuts needed to make the right jig are simple rips and cross cuts into plywood.

For example, when I think of all the time I've spent sanding my brace bottoms on my radiused dish I think that I could easily pay for the cost of building a brace cutting jig in just one or two guitars.

There is an principle that I think of a degrees of freedom. Once a piece is in a properly constructed jig, the only way that piece can move, or the cutter can move, is where you want it to move. A good jig has only one degree of freedom. To illustrate what I mean let's look to the opposite extreem. Suppose you wish to make a guitar top from a spruce log using only an adz. With enough practice and skill (decades?) you could probably do it. But the number of degrees of freedom in the process is very high. Every stroke of the adz has the potential of landing in the wrong place at the wrong angle with the wrong amount of force. None of us would seriously consider making our tops this way. When I set up may badsaw for resawing in use a dial caliper to make sure that the blade is parallel to the fence and the the fence is the proper distance from the blade. Sometimes I mount a finderboard to hold the board I'm resawing against the fence. All in an attempt to reduce the degrees of freedom to one.

I suppose that most of this stuff is obvious but it has taken me years to learn it. Knowing that I want to eliminate all but one degree of freedom has improved the jigs that I build. Consider how I route my truss rod slot. I used to just set up the fence on the router table, put a pencil mark on the fence where the router bit is, lower the neck on to the bit and route. This has always worked. However, there was alway a small stairstep where the plunge cut was ade for each of the passes. More importantly, the depth of the cut was not consistant because I didn't alway apply even pressure on the neck while I was routing. Now I use a stop block mounted on the fence as well as a finger board on the side of the neck and mounted to fence. The cuts are as close to perfect as I can make them.

"What are JIGS for?"
So the Irish can dance!

Sorry ---

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Mike
Good thoughts. Since I am just starting out I should probably be setting aside more time for making jigs. It will save time in the long run and improve quality.

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
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House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

Me, too! I've been thinking that I'll build my jigs first, then start on guitars. Mario may frown. More than once he's told someone to not over think things and just build, and while I agree with that idea, it's not my MO.   

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DES - Shepherd, MI

True, to a point. But don't spend a year building jigs before diving in! Make a mold, make dishes, make a bender, and then have at it. I've got one completed guitar under my belt, and a box that's still waiting for binding and finishing (but is otherwise complete), and those tools (plus a couple of templates for headstock and basic bridge shape. Template bits are your friends!) got me through my first fine. That, and one incarnation of a binding routing setup. I'm now pondering the Williams/Fleischman jig, 'cause I feel uncomfortable with the Ribekke/LMI type one I've built. To the point I don't want to use it, even.

I know some people love the tooling/jigging aspect of it all, but I find it very, very tiring after a while, and if I didn't alternate the building with the jig-making, I'd drive myself nuts. Especially if you're doing this as a hobby, remember it's supposed to be fun!

This said, I've got two molds made, 3 bending forms to build, ideas/sketches drawn up for another fingerboard radiussing setup, and when I get my new router, I'll set it up in a table, opening new avenues (such as, case in point, arching templates). But I still gotta build in between jig-making.

First, I need a place to build. Work area is #1 priority!

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DES - Shepherd, MI

It's important that the first guitar you make is a success, so I'd say that for a first guitar either get a kit or get the sides bent top/bottom thicknessed maybe even the rosette installed by the supplier. In the long run it will only add a small proportion to the overall cost and you'll end up with that first guitar looking pretty good and you'll need minimum outlay on specialist tools. You never know you may just decide that this building game is just not for you and the $3000 you save on tooling and jigs will buy you a nice guitar from one of the fine makers that live on these pages.

First guitar; buy a kit. Discuss

ColinColin S38412.5275231482

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Colin,

I agree with that mostly. As a beginning builder, it's intimidating to see all of the jigs and forms floating around out there...a bit confusing too...realizing that you could do a better job if you had them all...but not wanting to spend too much time and money on them. I'll try to build'em as I need'em. And maybe buy some along the way as required as my hobby progresses.

Eric

This is a good discussion.

I don't frown on the extensive use of jigs one bit, particularly for use with power tools. Sometimes its overkill though - why would someone make a router jig to ramp the slots on their classical guitar when a sharp chisel will do the job in 15 seconds.

As far as braces and such are concerned - I use a #4 stanley upside down in a vise, and then a radius dish with sandpaper. Takes me less than a minute per brace, and I only have to do it for three braces per guitar. So for my guitars (I only make classicals), it makes no sense.

Starting off, I'd advise someone to spend the most time learning how to sharpen their tools, and make only the necessary jigs (molds, dishes, joining boards, and so on) - worry about the luxury jigs later (like a binding jig).

Regards,
Joshua French

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I'm not over loaded with jigs either. I shape my braces with a chisel and a finger plane because it's fun. My point was that when you do make a jig keep in mind the single degree of freedom principle and that if you have a doubt about doing a procedure correctly, consider making a jig.

For example, while drilling some holes in my peghead to accept tuners, I measured and marked carefully where they were going to go, made a small indent with an awl and used my drill press with a brad point drill bit. Everything was clamped down securely after I positioned the drill bit directly over the center mark by hand. When I was done, two of the holes were off by over 1/16th of an inch. What went wrong? I didn't have any idea until a year later when I was trying to build a jig to do another peg head. I lined up all the hole centers, drilled the first hole and then moved the jig to the next postion. At this point the drill bit should have been guaranteed to be directly over the mark. It wasn't, Why? Rotate the bit a little by hand. Oh look! The point of the bit is moving. Now it's over the mark. Rotate a little more and it's off again. Oh my, the bit's brad point is not centered!!! It's a bad bit. If I didn't have a jig that guaranteed the proper placement of the holes, I might never have figured out what was wrong.

As for spending all your time making jigs before you build anything, I build my jigs when I need them. Sometimes they are one-time throw aways. As with everything in life don't get fanatical or absolutist about it. I carve my necks with a spoke shave, mirco-planes, and a straight edge. I've thown some necks away too. My favorite guitar is on its second neck.
Mike Mahar38412.6388310185

My first guitar - currently being french polished, has taken me almost a year to build. In that time I've also built; benches, a thickness sander, fox bender, and tons of jigs. I built them as I needed them mostly from scrap and recycled building materials leftover from renovating our house. Hell, I've even made jigs, to make jigs.

I did this for a couple of reasons, the first being that I needed to hone my woodworking skills to the point that I was confident that I actually had some skills. And secondly , I'd heard (or read) so many people saying things like "if only I'd had a fox bender for my first guitar", or "if only I'd had a thickness sander, my first guitar would have turned out much nicer. Well, I wanted my first guitar to turn out nice, and learning from other peoples mistakes is one of the reasons we come to these forums.

For me, only building one guitar was never on the cards, I was always going to build a bunch of them. Am I happy with the first? Yes, but although there's still some areas that need improvement, it's experience that will get me there, jigs can only take you part of the way.

Building with kits lets you get acquainted with luthiering. It helps you to see how things are done. It helps build your confidence. so I would say it is the way to start. Then as you require them, start to build the jigs you need. Or if you are independently wealthy or not mechanically inclined, buy them. They help out in aligning and keeping things square. Most people that start out in a new venture need time to get the necessary skills to get a saleable product. That is why people apprentice for 4 to 5 years. One thing to remember is if you draw out what you are going to make (jig or whatever) it is the same as building it once. Once your confidence and skill level increases you will need less jigs and have less stressful time building. So keep up the good work and progress at your own speed.

I would also agree that building (or buying) jigs as you need them is the way to go. If you are going to buy a jig then make sure you really need it. I bought a few jigs when I was just getting started that I thought I would need. A few of them have only been used once or twice. I have also come up with a few jigs which are much simpler and faster to use then the ones I bought.

As I build more and more I find that there is also a place for learning to do things without jigs. I have noticed a dramatic jump in my skill level over the past few guitars (completed 5, 6-9 in progress). Sure a few more jigs may have helped me avoid a few mistakes I made on the first 2 or 3 guitars, but I can now perform many of those operations with confidence and have it turn out just as good as if I had of been using a jig.

great discussion, keep it going

JoshJosh H38412.7598032407

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

I use a number of jigs for various reasons and will graduate someday to CNC work, I don't think it detracts from the art of the instrument. I think it frees you up, if you know your neck will always fit the same then you can focus on making other things better. I spent the summer building guitars and jigs for those and I'm now in the process of re-doing my jigs again with better technology this time.

So for instance for my headstocks I have piece of ply cut to the shape with 1/4" holes for the tuners, but I'm working on one that will have metal bushings for the tuner holes so they don't ream out and will make aligning the headstock easier. I'm also working some for shaping the fingerboard layout and the neck layout.

Cheers

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

I think it very much depends where you're coming from; I had a background in electric guitars, and I'd been pining over acoustics for a good few years, so I knew I was going to go for it, and build several. I bought materials for three guitars straight off the bat. I knew I could make necks (a neck is a neck is a neck, 'cept for maybe the heel), and decided on heat blanket+fox bender because of the safety factor (1 set of broken sides = 1 blanket bought, after all), and I'm glad I did.

A kit wouldn't have been nearly as rewarding or as much fun for me. I did have Rivolta thickness my woods for me (except the top, which I did by plane, and by hand sanding if I couldn't quite get it how I wanted it set up. Now building a thickness sander), but beyond that, everything from the bracing to the lining to the bridge to the fingerboard to the headstock was made by me. Oh, and I bought purfling and binding, but since I don't have a bandsaw or a thickness sander, can ya blame me ;-)

I doubt I'll ever go CNC, because I'm not looking to do this for the cash, no two instruments of mine are entirely identical, and I enjoy the manual woodwork aspect of it. I'll use jigs and templates where I feel it's appropriate, like for shaping radii, headstock outlines, tuner hole placement, basic bridge outlines, and brace arches. Probably a few for that neck joint that's kicking around in my head, but that's because it's gotta fit good and tight, without gaps, more than anything else.

[QUOTE=LanceK] "What are JIGS for?"
So the Irish can dance!

Sorry --- [/QUOTE]

I'm so glad you said that. It spared me the shame!

Steve Brown

   Jigs are not for production? You need to rethink that statement .You are correct that the jig is designed to make your work more error free. Martin , Taylor , Gibson all use jigs as do most production plants. You as a builder need to decide what jigs you deem important.
    Jigs can do many things from moldng the sides to making a bridge. How the jig is made can fix or add to your problems. I am a machinist and make jigs for a living. I applied that experience to my guitar making. The more guitars I made the more jigs I discovered for building.
      It still takes the hand work to fit and finish the instrument and this is what separates the amature from the pro. Many of you I am sure build fine guitars but it takes experience to learn the pitfalls and proper techniques. I am still learning and hope to as long as I build
John Hall
   

[QUOTE=tippie53]    Jigs are not for production? You need to rethink that statement
   [/QUOTE]

Of course jigs are for production. My point is that they are not only for production (read mass production). The main motivation for me to make a jig is to do the operation accurately. I often heard people say that they didn't build a jig because they were only going to do the operation once or a few times. Sometimes that's the right thing to do by often it is better to build a jig first. I would argue, for example, that it would be better to build a simple "saddlematic" type jig to place a bridge that it wold be to do it with a tape measure or ruler. Even if you only intend to make one instrument.

This lurker finds this a very interesting discussion! For those not aware, there is a book very influential in woodworking and craft circles that deals with this issue: The Nature and Art of Workmanship, by David Pye. See http://www.astragalpress.com/cat_natureandart.htm. He makes a fascinating argument based upon the distinction between "the workmanship of risk" and "the workmanship of certainty" versus the typical "hand vs. machine" argument. It really is a "must own" book for any craftsperson. His book "The Nature and Aesthetics of Design" is also great.

Brendan Kelley

    I can agree to that. Jigs are tools and are only as good as they are designed and used. Lets face it , the beauty of this hobby is that there are so many ways to make an instrument and I enjoy seeing the different methods.
    I let my engineering background help me produce and design them. I get alot ideas talking to luthiers and learning from mistake we make. Strucural failures often occure when overlook something simple. Complicated jigs arn't better simplicity is.
   One learns more from a failure than a success.
john hall

[QUOTE=tippie53]
   One learns more from a failure than a success.
john hall [/QUOTE]

Amen.

I wouldn't say that one learns more from failure than success, but rather that one should learn different things.

From failure, whether one's own or another's, the thinking person should learn what doesn't work and hence what not to do, whilst from success what does work and hence to do should be learned. both are essential lessons for success.

Michael McClain